Young and Powerful with CHOICE for Youth and Sexuality
Young and Powerful with CHOICE for Youth and Sexuality
Activist Special! Been there, done it; ins & outs of the Summit (of the Future)
Heard about the Summit of the Future but don't know where to begin? Or are you a young activist who wants to know what's next for this intergovernmental UN initiative?
Then look no further activist angels! In this Advocacy Special episode CHOICE sits down with Ishaan Shah (Stolen Dreams) to spill the tea on all things Summit of the Future and where can youth activists go from here! We talk about what the Summit is, how it came about, and why it's important to de-mystify the UN and make it work for youth!
Acronyms used:
- ICPD+30 = 30th anniversary of the International Conference on Population and Development
- SRHR = Sexual and Reproductive Health and Rights
- CSE = Comprehensive Sexuality Education
- MIYP = Meaningful and Inclusive Youth Participation
- SGBV = Sexual and Gender Based Violence
Find Ishaan on Twitter or on Instagram!
CHOICE's info:
Podcast theme music by Transistor.fm
OK, let's begin. So welcome everyone to another episode of Young and Powerful with choice for youth and sexuality. I am Poppy Stanbury, your host and today we have another activist special for the Advocacy Dragons out there. So I'm having the honour to sit with the amazing Ishaan Shah who is the Co founder of Stolen Dreams, which is a youth LED collective working with stakeholders internationally to end modern slavery and human trafficking through education. And Ishaan also advises several UN agencies and does like a bunch of different things, which I don't think I can do the full list right now. But another big thing that you've been working on recently is summit of the future, which is what we are going to talk about today. So Ishan, if you could just give a brief intro into who you are as a person, other than the amazing work that you do. I'm going to then jump into my many questions for you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Poppy, for having me today. I'm Ishaan, as you mentioned, I'm 21 years old. I'm based in London in the United Kingdom. And yes, I've really grown up within the UN system with feminist advocacy and leadership. And I'm driving change with a bunch of other young feminists across the world to really make sure that human rights, especially the rights of women and girls, are centred. I love it. And you do such amazing work. And also kudos to you for how much work you do as well, because I see your name popping up everywhere. And I also know that you just finished your thesis. I think you just graduated, just graduated from King's College London. So one less thing to think about. Good. And I hope you can take some rest now as well. But yeah, thank you so much for being here today to talk with Choice about Summit of the Future, because I know you were really involved in the process from the beginning. And so to clear any clarifications people might have, can you please tell us what is Summit of the Future? That's a great question. I think that's something that a lot of people ask. Even though we've had the summit of the Future, I think a lot of people still ask what is it, what does it mean, and what happens next? And in order to explain what the summit is, I think I'd almost tell a little bit of a story. I'd go back to the 75th anniversary of the UN back in 2020. And the result of that 75th anniversary was the adoption of a declaration on the commemoration of the 75th anniversary of the United Nations. That's a declaration adopted by the member states. And within that declaration, it called on the Secretary General to produce a report called Our Common Agenda on how we can essentially get the back on track, You know, the same development goals, we're failing at achieving the majority of them. So this was an opportunity for the UN system and for the member states to really reflect on the progress we've achieved in some areas. But more importantly, how can we get back on track? And within our common agenda, the Secretary General, he wrote a number of different recommendations. And one of those recommendations, for example, was the establishment of the UN Youth Office. And we saw that established last year, which was a great moment in UN history. We saw him call for the Transforming Education Summit, which happened in 2022. And another proposal, of course is the Summit of the Future, which happened this year in September during the 79th session of the General Assembly during the OR just before the High Level Week. And really the Summit of the future, as he describes it, is this opportunity for us to reflect on what are the institutional shifts that we need to deliver on the Sustainable Development Goals. Last year in 2023, we had the SDG Summit, the Sustainable Development Goals Summit, and that was an opportunity for all the Member States to reaffirm their commitment to the fact that the SDGS are a road map to having a more inclusive, safe, fairer, equitable world. But the summers of the future is really looking at, OK, we we have the SDGS, we have this framework and this road map, but what are the stuff we have to do on a structural level to get us back on track? And most of it revolved around institutional change So reform of the UN, for example, but also more broadly, how can we rebuild trust in each other, in the member States and also in multilateralism as a whole, especially against the backdrop of a geopolitically fragmented world of escalating crises, of the increasing impacts of conflict and climate change. But also we're seeing this growing anti rights movement too, that's pushing back on human rights and gender. So the Summit of the future was really about that. And the outcome of that summit was a pact for the future and it had two annexes as well and a declaration on future generations and a global digital compact. And that was adopted all three of those elements unanimously by the member states. Wow, thank you so much for sharing. That's a lot of information and I have a few follow up questions and thoughts as well. I mean, one thought that came up initially was in a setting where there is currently A UN budget crisis. Like I, I think not, if you're not within, like working within the UN system, you might not know that there is a budget crisis and that the UN is severely needing more money. I think it's actually a really good starting point that so many of these initiatives happened and that they weren't, I mean, I imagine they were probably scaled down in some form, but that they still happened in like a meaningful way. And there was involvement from civil society in a lot of these initiatives as well. So that's a positive thing which I just thought of. And in our sector where there's so many negative things, I'm actually really pleased to see all of these initiatives did happen. And you then also mentioned about the Pact for the Future. So that is kind of the like outcome document, right? Is that correct? So that's what people can read Exactly. So that's the principal outcome document of the summit of the future. And the pact was split into 5 chapters that member states agreed on. And the five chapters are or. Chapter 1 is sustainable development and financing for development. Chapter 2 is international peace and security. Chapter 3 is science, technology and digital cooperation. Chapter 4 is on youth and future generations, and Chapter 5 is on transforming global governance. So this pact basically had the entire UN system within it, right? That's the content of it. So the fact that we even got a pact and the fact that 193 member states, 193 family members with very, very different views, and obviously some areas in which they can agree on too, but the fact that they were all able to agree on this pact is a huge feat within itself. And I think that's a win for multilateralism, especially in the fragmented world that we're living in today. Yeah, I think it's definitely really difficult to get consensus in any of these like big UN events that happen, whether it's like the Commission status of women or the Human Rights Council, like getting consensus is incredibly difficult. So I think, yeah, as you say, it's a really big win that there was 193 a lot of the equal and family members. Like that's the really, like looking at, I don't know, family reunions. I think there's definitely a lot of parallels that can be drawn that many people can probably draw there. I wow, so many questions. So I have. I was curious because you mentioned the declaration for future generations. So obviously that is a annex that really focuses on young people and I'm going to come to that in a second. And then there was also the global digital compact compact. Thank you. I was. This is just my curiosity, but do you know why these two topics were chosen as annexes against like every other topic under the sun? Yeah, I think that the Global Digital Compact really emerged because of this. Well, look at the way technology is is rapidly evolving, right Within months we're seeing the huge potential but also the potential risks of emerging technologies of artificial intelligence. So this was really a moment for the UN to have a conversation about what can we do in a very multi stakeholder way, right? Recognising that the states play a role, that the private sector plays a role, tech, tech companies, but also civil society and and human rights defenders. Because the rights that are online also apply offline, the rights that are offline and can also apply online. So this was really a moment to consolidate to start those discussions as well, particularly on on artificial intelligence governance. And that conversation continues to keep going as well, even after the the compact, sorry, as it had been adopted. And similarly, for the declaration of future generations, we had a declaration of future generations, I think it was back in the sort of 1990s by UNESCO. But this declaration is all about thinking that the decisions we make today have an impact on generations that are not yet born. And it's really important for that, you know, strategic foresight, that anticipatory governance to really be embedded into our thinking so that, you know, the decisions we make today are not compromising generations to come. That's a really clear explanation. Thank you. And I definitely, I found it very interesting when reading the first drafts because there was a lot about space as well, which I mean, choice doesn't do anything on space. So I'm couldn't dive too much into it. But I think it's very interesting to see how different the agreement, like the political agreements we have now are compared to 20 years ago. As you say, like the world looks incredibly different. I just wanted to before I go too much more into like the content of of the pact and the declaration. Who was involved in the summit of the future? Yes, so I mean that the summit of the future was a process done under the auspices of the General Assembly. So it was a member stage from process. It was the member state to negotiating the pact. It was the member states who voted and agreed on the pact. And really civil society play an important role in intergovernmental processes, as we know. But the process itself was very opaque. There wasn't much transparency. And as Poppy as you know, the CSW Commission on the Status of Women Negotiations, you know, the member states negotiate behind closed doors. It all happens in New York, not very accessible for civil society to engage and to influence and input. But I mean, we tried, you know. And really the summer of the future was a very profound moment because as I mentioned, it had the whole UN system in that pact, which means that civil society organisations who work on very different issues were forced to work together. We were forced to come together, we were forced to strategize and see how can we open the space itself. And there was a lot of drama and a lot of controversy around the summer of the future. You know, the member states were so overworked, you know, they're spread. Then a lot of these missions don't have the the staffing rate to actually follow all these processes. You had the pact process, the declaration, you had the compact all happening at once. And that was against the backdrop of other UN processes as well. So it was a capacity issue for the member states too. But I mean, a civil society, we tried, we tried to influence, we tried to push hard. There are certain elements in the pact that civil society managed to get in. Of course, the pact is not at all we want it to be. It sort of does lack ambition. But there are crucial elements I think in it that really emerged. And also the pact points to future processes. So we have the upcoming Financing for Development conference next year, we have the World Social Summit. The pact also has some language on the revitalization of the Commission on the Status of Women talks about. So the 2027 SDG Summit talks about the High level political Forum. There's a lot to follow up on, I think. And that's important for us to civil society to remember because yes, we didn't get the perfect opportunity to influence and make an impact, but that doesn't mean we stop here, right? The pact gets adopted and immediately start looking at follow up implementation, what's next kind of thing. But also I think we shouldn't really overlook as well the civil society conference that happened in Nairobi earlier this year too. I mean, to have a civil society conference for the first time held in the global majority for the first time held in Africa for the first time. It was held at the UN offices at Nairobi in Kenya. And that attracted thousands of civil society participants, all six Co facilitators. So the member states, the six member states who are in charge of the negotiations for the the pact, the Declaration of Future Generations and the Global Digital Compact, all of them came to Nairobi, the Secretary General came to Nairobi. I mean, that's a signal in itself of how vital role civil society play in supporting but more importantly strengthening intergovernmental deliberations to make sure that, you know, human rights are at the centre, gender equality are at the centre, and also to bring the energy back into the process too. I mean, for many of us who follow these intergovernmental processes, we often get very jaded very fast, right? You see the member states arguing of the language and of, you know, where to put the punctuation, the grammar, etcetera. I mean, that's not even an exaggeration, right? But I think that a civil society to bring that energy to look at the summer of the future, not just, as, you know, words on paper, but the essence of it, to really look at the future of multilateralism and how urgent it is to see some reform. So yes, lots of benefits, lots to learn as well from the way in which civil society weren't included and lots of, I think regrouping and strategizing that we need to do a civil society and especially young people as well to see what are ways in which we can engage. What are the champion member states who really brought our voices into the room and how can we work with them more across issues? The, the annoying thing about a podcast is that everyone can't see me nodding, nodding along because you're dropping gems right now. Ishaan, so much important information is coming out of your mouth right now. And thank you for sharing it with us. And I, I think one thing that struck me that I want to share kind of like as a call to action for civil society, especially young people who are listening, because as you mentioned in the pack, there are so many opportunities. Like it talks about the Commission on the status of women, about the various SCGS summer 2027. Like there's so many initiatives or events like advocacy events coming up that we can now work towards. And since this was like a global consensus, we can hold decision makers, we can hold our governments accountable on like the agreement they made within this pact about engaging with these future events or spaces or whatever. Like this is a real moment for civil society to follow up and to hold accountability. And for young people in particular, I mean, look at Chapter 4 of the fact it's dedicated to youth and future generations. And there is some good language on, you know, member states having to convene consultative bodies at the national level, for example, to inform their decision making or to include young people on their delegations to the UN. So there's a lot of ways in which we can use that language of Chapter 4. Bring that home, bring that back to the local level, bring that back to the national level to really open space within your country. I think that's really important to remember as well is that really this whole summer, the future process and many other intergovernmental processes have really taught us that we don't have to only engage at sort of the UN New York level. You know, the decisions are being made by our governments at the capital level in our cities and by our foreign ministries. So really we have to engage there as well to make sure that young people's voices are being heard, being taken into account, but then also that our priorities and recommendations are then being sent to the diplomats and negotiators who are in the rooms negotiating. So really that's the message I bring home is that yes, this summer of the future was a very New York centric process, but we have to burst that bubble and really bring it back home because that's what matters, right? As when we can bring what the UN produces back to the ground at the local level. Exactly, exactly. This is something that I, I always try and reiterate to, to the young people that I work with that it is, it might seem so far like the UN is so far away and it's like, what does he even do? Especially if we read the news nowadays, like, is it actually working? But then you get these opportunities and they, they, they take a long time to work up to them. So there are multiple opportunities to like contact the government, contact like people who are going to be in the room and try and influence what they're saying way before the event actually happens or the negotiations actually happen. As you have. I I mean, I'm preaching to the choir right here. This is what you've been doing all along. So I think, yeah, this is a really strong message that you're sharing. And it definitely you're, I mean, you're answering so many questions that I already had as you're speaking, which is fantastic. It's like the perfect podcast guest. So thank you. But I, I want to just ask again, because, yeah, you, you mentioned about how, you know, we can bring this back to our local governments, to our national governments. But just why, Why in general should young people, specifically the public, but like young people who aren't involved with NGOs or human rights, like why should they care about the pact of the future or the some of the future? Like why is it relevant to them? That's a really good question. It's a huge question. You know, why, why is any of these discussions that are being had at the UN relevant to people on the ground? And I think the real simple answer is that the UN is, you know, the best we've got. It's the, it's the only space in which, you know, member states can come together, governments can come together and really talk things through, talk their issues through. As you mentioned, it's, it's quite hard even today to look at the UN and ask, you know, what is it really doing, you know, is it working? And I think that for those of us who criticise the UN I think it's important to hold it accountable. Of course it's important to hold member states accountable, but it's also important to recognise the tremendous success of the UN. Like, you know, we have the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. We have resolutions, countless resolutions on the rights of women and girls. We have Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security, on youth peace and security on a whole host of issues that are actually used at the national level and the local level to support and protect and promote and uphold rights. Think if we didn't have those frameworks, it'll be very difficult. I mean, for example, and this doesn't really have to do with the some of the future directly, but I mean, let's talk about generation equality, let's talk about UN Women and the initiative of generation equality and the fact that multi stakeholder spaces are mobilised and you know, we repeal or stop the repeal of the law in Gambia, for example. If you look at the summit of the future now, it just is is a recommitment to multilateralism, it's a recommitment to human rights, it's a recommitment to gender equality. It's a way to really ensure that people have rights, people can live with freedom and with dignity, that we can go about our day-to-day lives and yeah, really exercise and enjoy that privilege. I guess right of of making sure that we we have access to fundamental human rights. I emphasise the human rights quite a lot because it was a hugely contasted issue in the summer of the future process. There was a lot of push back on human rights and on gender equality. But at the end of the day, we agreed on all the member states agreed on a pact that reaffirmed commitments to to those two core pillars, human rights and gender equality. But it's a good question. I mean, you know what, what, what does some of the future actually mean to anyone on the ground? You know, you ask someone who doesn't engage with UN what the summit of the future is and they're not going to know there was an issue with the summit as a whole, right? The process is how will we be able to socialise what the summit was, what the UN does and the need for reform. To your everyday person who is not thinking about what the UN does and is not thinking about what language to get in a resolution, but it is thinking about where is the next meal going to come from? How will they get access to clean water? Will they go to school tomorrow? You know, will they survive the night in a situation of armed conflict, for example? So, yeah, I mean, that's a question that has got me thinking a bit more Poppy. So thanks for for asking it as well. Also points to the privilege of how it is to engage with the UN, right? And to to be able to engage, to be able to even talk to governments. You know, a lot of young people can't engage with the UN and even with their governments because for free of reprisal for imprisonment. You know, it's it's a tough conversation to have. But I think more than anything, the summer, the future, really try to rebuild that trust between the member states in multilateralism. What from what I've heard from diplomats for negotiating in the room, I think it worked in that regard. I think that it allowed them to trust each other a little bit more. But I think it just explodes exposed a lot of, I don't know if we'd call them cracks in the system or they're intentionally built that way, but it exposed a lot of issues that we need to look at moving forward. But yeah, good question. Poppy, you put me on the spot there. I'm going to take a bit more. Sorry to put you on the spot, but you answered it magnificently. So you you didn't crack under pressure. But I think that's, yeah, interesting what you say about how it's exposed or not necessarily the cracks, but maybe it was intentionally built that way. But it definitely started restarted the conversation. And I think there's like our generation is much more critical of these like multilateral spaces. And I think it's really important that the voices of the youth now are more integrated into these spaces. And I think I mean, I'm very guilty of this that often like we look at like government as them and civil society as us, but there are also young people within government who are pushing for the same things that we're pushing for. And I don't think that like them and us binary is useful in actually progressing these agreements or progressing human rights or gender equality forward. And just while I I'm on the, the thought, you, you give me so many different changes of thoughts that I'm trying to keep up with in my brain. But you said that human rights and gender equality were very contentious in the negotiations on the summit. And gender equality doesn't surprise me. That's that. It's almost cliche how little that surprises me that that was a sensitive topic. But I'm wondering why human rights in particular was sensitive. Yeah. I mean, we can take one example, for example, in the Pact of the Future on Chapter 5, which was on transforming global governance, there was an action item on human rights. And within that action item, the initial language was something along the lines of calling for increased funding for the Office of the High Commission on Human Rights. So the Office of the High Commission on Human Rights essentially. And Poppy, you engage more with the human rights mechanisms in Geneva. So correct me if I'm if I'm wrong, but that office is really responsible for being a secretariat for the Human Rights Council. It's responsible for the special procedures. So you know, the, the experts from the Human Rights Council, the special rapporteurs and really the office of the High Commission Human rights is, is the home of human rights in the human system, right? I mean, that body operates out of Geneva. It, it's funded. But obviously, given the massive push back on human rights and just generally, I mean, the funding for human rights is shrinking so significantly. So there was a paragraph in the pack that really called very concretely, it's increased that funding, so calling on member states to give more money for them to negotiate more money as well from the regular budget of the UN. And that paragraph was weakened down to something along the lines of telling the secretary general to produce a report that assesses if the human rights, the office of the High Commission of Human Rights needs funding. I mean, that's just one example, right? And I think it's it's again, this bigger backdrop of pushing back on human rights by some very regressive member states. And to be honest, I don't know why people don't like human rights. You know, it just baffles me. You know, human rights are the bedrock of our foundations, right? The foundations of our systems, of our societies. You know, when everybody enjoys human rights, everybody prospers. Baffles me why there is this push back. But of course, you know, if you give people human rights, you know, you threaten power, you threaten greed, all the usual sort of things, right? So it wasn't a surprise really that human rights came into the question. I mean, if you look to the pack for the future, for example, there is no reference of the rights of LGBTQI plus persons. You know, human rights then sort of merges into conversation with gender equality, which then merges into conversations around section reproductive health and rights and and member states just can't agree. But I have to say it's a minority of member states, right. A lot of the majority of member states are really pushing for human rights are really ensuring the Universal Declaration of human Rights is at the core the the UN, but also the world does. It's just this very, very loud minority that likes to make noise. And I'm sure probably you've experienced that across all the UN spaces, right? It's not just an isolated moment in the summer. It's an every UN process. They're always screaming and shouting about how we need to, you know, balance human rights with development or the right to development or with other. So whereas in accordance with national law is what would go always here, I've started making a bingo of things that I hear. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, and if you look at the language of human rights, it is caveat a little bit, but it's just, yeah, it just is. It just is. It's an interesting tidbit to know from someone who wasn't in the negotiation. So thank you for sharing. And obviously I have to ask. His choice is choice for youth and sexuality. So how does the summit and the pact and all the annexes, which I'm not going to name now because it's a mouthful, how does it apply to or how is it relevant to sexual and reproductive health and rights for young people? OK, let me start with a negative, but I want to clear that this negative doesn't dampen the the whole declaration of future generations. I mean the declaration of future generations. I can't stress this enough. Is is it's a landmark. The language is not great, but it's a landmark piece of UN text. I think it's so important to recognise that. I mean, the fact that the UN is now and the member states are starting to think about how the decisions we make today can impact future generations, which is a whole new concept in the UN space. I mean, it's civil society. We talk about it a lot. If you look at indigenous cultures as well, it's, it's embedded in indigenous cultures. But I mean, for the UN to have this conversation and for them to agree on a text like that, it's great. Unfortunately, there was no reference to section reproductive health and rights and even reference to section reproductive health was taken out. So that's the the fall back of that declaration. But in the pact, of which the declaration is an annex, we have a paragraph on section reproductive health and rights. It's caveated with in accordance with the Commission on the International. Sorry, what is it called, Poppy? the International Conference on Population Development. Yeah, Yeah, it's it's caveated with that, the language on that in accordance with that. Is it a convention, the Conventional Population Commission, Commission. Yeah. I see. ICPD. My brain is full of acronyms and I always forget. I will add this acronym to the show notes with what it actually is. Perfect. Yeah. So it's it's you have a paragraph. So we have reference to section of the rights. Yeah, with ICPD. And that's a win in itself. I mean, the fact that it's in a text like that, I mean, of course several delegations have made reservations on that paragraph. But you know, we, we got it in the text and it's a great way as well to use that language to bring it back again, as I mentioned to the national level, you know, to tell your member state, well, you've agreed to this in the pact now, you know, do something about it at the national level type of thing. But of course, sexual reproductive health and rights is a very contentious issue. You know, as choice very well is known, it covers a breadth of, of issues that some member states are not very happy with, whether that's reproductive rights and abortion rights or that's comprehensive sexuality education. But of course, as we all know, sexual reproductive health and rights, SRHR is, is foundational for everything. And if we don't have SRHR, then so many other areas of life or the signal development crumble. So exactly, it was a tough conversation and there were a couple of trade-offs involved between the member states, but it's in the pact and we've got to look ahead now to the next Commissioner population development next year. We just had the Commissioner Population Development's 30th anniversary ICPD30 this year. So yeah, a lot more work to be done. And of course in the year of mega elections, as they're being called, particularly with the US election coming up as well. I mean, a lot of work to be done around making sure that in every election, right women's and girls rights in all their diversity is, is a voting point, right? It's, it's a foundation of any government that comes in. Exactly. I, yeah, I, I want to like snap along with what you're saying. It's so important definitely. And I think we can use, as you say, like the language isn't as strong as we would hope in the in the pact, but at least we can use it as a springboard going into the CPD, the Commission on Population Development next year. And we can still refer to it in other like it's for people who don't necessarily do language advocacy when we have like a multilateral agreement that has consensus from all states. It's a really strong springboard for us to use in other language. So if we're looking at like a resolution on violence against women, we can then refer back to this pact and we can say, well, this was agreed to. This language was agreed on by all member states. So it should be agreed on in this, for example. I think I interrupted you though, Ishan, what were you going to say? No, that's exactly right. And I think it's important to look at it in a way in which we held the line with that right. We didn't go backwards. So we we had a reference and I think that operating within the current situation of this hugely well resourced growing anti rights movement of this major push back, the fact that we were able to hold a line, hold the line as a win. I mean, obviously we need to go from holding the line to pushing forward. But I mean, we we have to also pat ourselves on the back as well as the feminist movement, right? We're operating in tough times. Oh my God, yeah. I feel like it's got worse. It's I mean I'm laughing, but it's I want to cry. Sorry of times is putting it politely. So it's yes, very much so. It's I think that's also something that you said earlier about the growing anti rights movement, and I think that's I mean, I don't know. I also wasn't like a human rights defender in the 90s. So I don't know what I was like I was 5, but you know, I feel like with digital technologies it's getting even worse. And the anti rights movement is growing so much anti gender, anti rights everything. And I think something that really hit me while you were speaking is about how important it is for civil society and especially young people to be in these like whether it's UN spaces or just like advocacy spaces. Because if we're not there, then there's no one to hold the line and everything will become all the language will get regressed. And then that trickles down to national level legislation. And because if we're not there, anti rights movements are certainly going to be there. Exactly. Yes. So it might seem futile and like why are we even engaged in the UN? But if we don't, then you can be certain that conservative agendas will be pushed forward and things will get worse 100%. But I don't want to linger on that thought because that's a depressing thought. So I do want to share a reflection that I had throughout the whole process of some of the future because I follow you on Instagram and I wanted to share how youth friendly your updates were. And I if you want, we will also share your Instagram in the show notes so people can also follow you. But I just, it was, it was something that always struck me whenever I saw your updates pop up, was how much you invested in keeping civil society informed about the process. Because you were very involved kind of from the inside, right? Like you, you did have a lot of insider knowledge because you were, I don't know, you had an official title in the whole process when I was part of the conference expert subcommittee for the Nairobi Civil Society Conference. But yeah, obviously within the UN space you get a lot of information and it's important to share. As you mentioned, the UN itself is not very accessible as many of us know. And you need to have that free flowing information because, you know, it's civil society, particularly the ones on the ground who have the lived expertise through experience. And you need to make sure that it's their priorities are the ones being reflected within these big high level global intergovernmental discussions. So, yeah, I mean, it was very important not only to me, but to many of us who engage in the process, who saw how opaque it was to make sure that we were sharing information, but also demystifying what the summer of the future was, what the UN was doing around this process. And really translating that often awkward and jargon filled UN language into a way in which young people can engage with it, but also just everyone can engage with it. Policy makers, civil society, young people, people who just wanted to know what is going on, what on earth is happening with the summer of the future. Yeah, I think that was really, really important to to many of us who engaged. And you know, for those of us who weren't in the room or I mean, my, my colleagues were following it closer, but I was following it on the periphery because it's very relevant to the other work that we do. So seeing your updates was really helpful and I could share it with the people that I work with who do more like local work in different countries and, you know, it was also applicable to them. So I think it's so important, as you say, to demystify these spaces. And yeah, as much as we might complain about like digital technologies and whatnot and how difficult they are, I mean, the fact that we can use social media to demystify something as huge and inaccessible as the UN like I was, I was so happy with your updates. So thank you for keeping us. I'm glad they were useful. And I mean, it was also really important as well because obviously with the summer of the future, as I mentioned, you have the whole UN system on the on the table being discussed. And although I wish I knew everything about all these different issues, you know, we, we can't and civil society, we always, you know, specialised in specific areas. So it was really important to share that information so that other constituencies who are working on issues that, you know, we've never touched, whether that's, you know, out of space governance, as you mentioned, or, you know, find the financing, international financial architecture reform, moving beyond GDP. And then you go into all the technical economic side of things sometimes goes over my head. And that we were sharing that information so that other constituencies could also engage, could also strengthen the parts of the of the pact that they were working on. So it was a really, I think, it was just a really beautiful moment to see civil society unite. I mean, we were uniting behind the frustration, the fact that we're not included very well in the process, but it was beautiful to see that we were all able to share information. We were all able to support each other and really build each other up to make sure the summit tried to deliver for for all. I think that's really beautiful. I think that's also something that's important to keep in mind because the work we do is tough and it's often we get more blows and we get more successes. And so hearing your experience of this and how since he was civil society came together, I think that is something that we can really hold hold up high as a success because it's very difficult. And I was thinking, so you're you're 21, as you said earlier, which is amazing. And I'm sure you get people saying this all the time. And I'm sure you're bored of hearing it now how much you've done for someone who's 21. You're like, yeah, shut up, Poppy. I get it. But I was also wondering was like, did you come across a lot of other youth activists throughout your engagement with the Summer of the future? Or was it more like, quote unquote, adults? I think a lot of young people mobilised and I think that was really heartwarming and needed, you know, young people had to be involved in this process. I think there were lots of youth constituencies that definitely mobilised, that definitely got involved, that fed into the actual intergovernmental process that were having bilaterals and talking to the member states, They were talking to the UN system, different UN agencies. So there was a lot of great youth mobilisation. And also what was really interesting, as well as the intergenerational piece, there were a lot of people who are working in the summer of the future now for several years, right? 2020 was 4 years ago. There were people who we're talking about the summer of the future to get into the Secretary General's our Common Agenda report, and these are civil society folks, older, some of them are getting to the end of the time as youth or maybe not youth. It was really nice to see how they supported us as young people as well. A lot of them, you know, came into the process, you know, open the doors, open the spaces, built our capacity, shared information with us, etcetera. So I think the intergenerational piece was really beautiful. As with any of the UN process, I think we needed more young people in this space. We need to engage more young people. I got a lot of messages, a lot of people asking me, you know, how do I engage, what do I do? And sometimes it was really tough to answer, you know, what can you do with this, with this process? But I think now we have a pact. I think, again, we can, as young people can use the outcome in our advocacy. I think that's the important part. I think there's a lot of conversation just to be had about UN processes in general and how transparent they are. I mean, that was another element of push back within the pack for the future. This this talk about how do we engage civil society, A lot of push back on that because there are some member states who love the intergovernmental nature of the UN and don't want to ruin that at all, right. So, yeah, I mean, there was good youth mobilisation. I think there's a lot more to be done to engage new faces, new people. Yeah. And really build that trust. I think in the UN, that was the whole point of the summer of the future, right? It was to rebuild trust in multilateralism. And a lot of young people just don't trust the member states, just don't trust the UN, and rightfully so as well. You know, there are very valid reasons as to why they they may or may not trust the these institutions. But if that's what the essence of the summit was about, it means that just because we have a pact, it means, you know, we can't lose the summer of the future. The essence must continue for for many, many years to come. Now, I really hope that your voice continues to be one that's is involved the summer of the future because I think your outlook on it is positive, which is important, but also realistic. And so, yeah, I, I wonder, like, are you going to keep well? Is there something coming up to do with the summit that you can keep engaging in or is it really now following up with various other processes and how they relate to what the language was in the pact? Yeah. So part of it is following up on the following processes and those processes from, from at least from what we do or focus on making sure that gender equality, women's and girls rights are centred in, in those spaces, whether that's, you know, the Financing for Development conference or the World Social Summit. And then we have the 2027 SDG Summit. Then we have the whole conversation of, you know, pick up Pandora's box, what happens after 20-30, right when the expiry date for the Sustainable Development Goals happens. So I mean, there's, there's a lot to follow up on, but in a few years time, there is actually going to be a formal review of the, the pact for the future. So we'll be working up towards that. And I'm sure every year now we'll be sort of taking stock, reflecting on the pact, you know, what's happened, what's moved, what's a bit sluggish, you know, have we made any progress on any of the areas? So we'll definitely keep an eye on on the pact moving forward. Yeah, I think it's, it's important. We can't keep having UN resolutions being adopted and they got it published online and they just disappear into the UN ether, right. We have to make sure we're following up. We have to make sure that accountability is strong. And that's not only for the summer of the future, but it's for every other UN process as well. So, yeah, I mean, the journey doesn't stop. It keeps going, keeps continuing. Yeah, it never ends. I always think we're working ourselves out of a job, which is a dream. It is a dream. It is a dream. And of course, I think it's that whole element of rebuilding trust. I mean, that's just something that's become really fascinating to me is how do we actually rebuild trust? Where do we even start that conversation? So, yeah, that's another area that I'll be looking into more. The big question. I'm curious to to see how you come along with that. That can be the next time you're on the on the on the on the podcast, you can talk about that. Yeah, exactly. But is there anything coming up that you're excited about? Well, I think as a as a feminist, right, looking at Beijing plus 30, I mean, it's a 30th anniversary of the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action happens next year. We're looking again at 30 years of progress with a question mark of things that we need to learn from, things that we need to do differently. And for those who don't know, don't know, the Beijing Declaration is the global policy framework, I guess, on women's and girls rights, on gender equality. It was adopted in 1995 at the 4th World Conference of Women. And yeah, it turns 30 years next show in in 2025 and the member states will negotiate a political declaration. They'll, you know, look at what they've achieved over 30 years, what they haven't achieved and the way forward. And I think actually that ties quite nicely into what the summer of the future is about as well. You know, it's looking at how do we rebuild trust in Beijing in the declaration? How do we look at rebuilding trust in gender equality as a whole, given that, as we mentioned, we talked about extensively this major push back on, on gender and human rights and the rights of women and girls, but also how do we look at the next 30 years? You know, I don't think we can afford to have the conversations we're having now in 30 years time around how we've not realised gender equality, how we failing to protect the rights of women and girls across the world, particularly in, you know, as a result of climate change, of conflict or increasing cost of living, right. So it's also looking as well, how can we maybe embed a bit of thinking around future generations into the Beijing declaration process. You know, how can we look at how actually respecting and upholding the rights of women and girls today, tomorrow and of those who are not born yet is is crucial to any sort of progress around sustainable development, around international financial architecture reform, around peace and security, You know, human rights, especially women and girls in all that diversity is is the cornerstone of that. So, yeah, we can't have a Beijing declaration process, a Beijing plus daily process that seeks comfort in agreed language. We need to have something more. We need to have something transformative. We need to have something that's rooted in rights. We need to see my ambition that is then translated into concrete action. Powerful, very powerful. I think that. Oh, sorry, I didn't stop. Very powerful. And I think that's a really good like call to action for this, for this podcast. I think looking forward to other advocacy spaces or like Beijing finance for development, looking at how we can take the pact forward. I think that's a really important call to action for especially young people to get involved with all of these, these different initiatives. And just to finish, because I have definitely picked your brains for a long time. And I really appreciate you sharing all of your insider knowledge, but also your like you just have a very, I mean, big kudos to you. Like this is a really complicated process and the UN is it's as a whole is a very complicated process. And you definitely have conveyed it to our audience in a way that is understandable and accessible. So thank you for for making the UN, for demystifying the UN for our audience. I'm very appreciative of that. And I just want to finish by asking, where do you personally go from here? I mean, not just, I'm not going to ask you about like after graduation, like what happens? I won't put you on the spot for that. But what about like, what are your goals coming up and how you want to engage? How how does Ishaan want to engage with the summit and the UNI? Think you mentioned it already, Poppy. I think it's the fact that we need to demystify what the UN does and bring it back to the ground. I think that the UN has already, the member states have already agreed on a lot of good resolutions and content. I think there are certain areas, obviously we need to work on and certain things that member states need to agree on more. But there's a lot of issues that have been already covered by the UN that the member states have agreed to implementing, but we just don't have any implementation, right? So I think that that's the main focus is how do we, yes, demystify the UN, how do we translate this awkward UN policy language into, you know, the, the, the grassroots, the raw energy of grassroots activism of young people on the ground. So I think that's going to be the main focus. And also to make sure that young people know that it's not about what as we as young people can do for the UN, but it's what can the UN do for us? Where can the UN where we're at, right? How can we leverage these tools, these mechanisms? UN is, as you mentioned, a huge, huge system. So many ways to engage. So it's really about as a young person finding the way in which you want to engage, how can you see the most value that the UN can give you know, for you and your advocacy and to yeah, connect with partners, connect with, with me, connect with choice, connect with, you know, these fantastic, you know, often and most of the time fantastic youth LED organisations who are so welcoming with open arms, who really share the information, as you mentioned, who you know, help you build your capacity, who are there to partner and collaborate, who are already engaging in these processes and are looking for more young people to engage too. I think the capacity issue is a huge issue for some of us who engage with the UN. We're all always looking for, for more young people to engage and to engage importantly in your own way, in the way you feel most comfortable, in the way you feel safe and in a way you enjoy it, right? You know, we, we have to fight for human rights, We have to fight for gender equality. We also make sure that our rights are being respected, that our well-being is being respected as well. So I think that's the the main thing looking forward implementation, accountability and more young people to really leverage the mechanisms of the UN to drive that change at the grassroots level. Incredible. That was that was amazing. I'm not going to ask any more questions because I feel like you just have ended on the most perfect ending notes. I love, I feel like this is really just, you know, Part 1 of Ishaan on the Choice podcast. But honestly, thank you so much for joining and for sharing your insights about some of the future and for explaining what it is And yeah, for doing your part in demystifying the UN as as huge and scary as it is. So thank you. Is there anything that you want to share about like where people can find you online or any anything you want to plug? Now is the moment. Yeah. I mean, if you want to connect on on Instagram or Twitter or is it called X now, I guess, but Ishaan Shah UK, which is ISHAANSHAHUK on on both platforms. Yeah. And always, always welcome to to reach out. And just thank you so much, Poppy, for having me and looking forward to continuing to support the work of choice as much as possible. I can't wait to keep working with you. I love it. Let's do this. Thank you so much. Have a fantastic day and thank you for joining us. Thanks so much, Poppy. Thanks to all who listened as well.